Part 2 of Stage fright uncovers the strange and diverse pre-concert routines some musicians go through, and what happens if you freeze in the middle of a performance. Fight or flight, to leave the stage or not to leave the stage that is the question. And then the taboo topic of beta blockers enters the conversation.
Host and MCO violist Yannick Dondelinger brings to a close this double episode of frank, funny and intimate discussion with MCO musicians around the effects, the origins, and some controversial solutions to having stage fright….
Stage fright is something we can all relate to, wether presenting a speech, teaching class, or chairing a meeting. This is especially true for the musicians of the Mahler Chamber Orchestra, who are out there on the worlds concert stages in front of thousands of people, every week, every year.
Listen to how our experienced orchestra members handle the "unspeakable" in this very personal double episode.
A full transcript of the episode is copied below.
Enjoy listening to the latest episode of the MCO's podcast, Between The Bars, on your favourite streaming service.
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TRANSCRIPT
Intro: Between the bars
[Music excerpt: Widmann – Choral Quartet]
Yannick Dondelinger: Hi, I'm Yannick Dondelinger and this is Between the Bars, the podcast of the Mahler Chamber Orchestra. We're on part two of Stage Fright, a very open, frank conversation exploring the fear of stepping on stage and performing night after night to thousands of people around the world, decade after decade, for an entire career. And you're listening to Choral Quartet by composer Jörg Widmann, performed by the Mahler Chamber Orchestra at the 2024 Ojai Festival in California. Jörg Widmann describes the piece as the feeling of being in a very quiet, very dark, very uncomfortable place that you cannot escape from. And it's kind of appropriate for this episode, as it sums up for me as a performer, the moment on stage, the silence in the seconds before the music starts, when you maybe begin to doubt yourself and a creeping feeling runs up your spine, a feeling that you are indeed trapped. Not in the dark, in broad stage light, in front of thousands of people. In episode one of Stage Fright, MCO musicians Ben, Justin, Joel, Johannes and Michiel were brave enough to open up about the effects of stage fright mentally, physically, socially and also to trace their own feelings of fear back into the fragile years of childhood, to some very personal traumas born out of sometimes well-meaning but ultimately misguided educators. But other times, coming from the pure bloody mindedness of some of their own relatives. It's amazing what you can get away with and sweep under the carpet when you're young, got talent and a burning desire to succeed big at the thing you love most. But fear, the Grim Reaper, will stalk you and maybe years later, come back to bite you when you least expect it. Prepare to hear about some truly cringe worthy moments from the celebrated careers of members of the Mahler Chamber Orchestra. You might even remember having been in the audience for some of them. And then we talk about drugs, beta blockers. But first, here's Michiel with his worst stage fright moment.
Michiel Commandeur: It was actually this slow movement of Mozart's Clarinet Concerto. It was in the Lingotto in Turin with Sabine Meyer, and I was sitting next to an amazing violin player who's now in Berlin, Philip. Anyway, in this slow movement, I really couldn't play anymore, but I really couldn't. I had to stop playing. I couldn't even fake that I was playing. I really had to stop. So I got up and I walked off stage.
Yannick Dondelinger: I remember, I remember that, I remember that.
Michiel Commandeur: You remember that and here's to all our listeners. You can imagine. Everybody around me now is laughing. And that's exactly what's the problem. No, you can cut that out. Because you walk off stage, you feel like the worst in the world. And then everybody starts laughing. So you feel so small. No no no no no. Now we can laugh about it. It's more than 20 years ago, but, um, I walked off stage and I was backstage. And then you hear the orchestra playing on stage, and you're walking around between all these empty cases there, with all the violins taken out and all that. And you go to the toilet for I don't know why, just, you know, to do something. You have a lot, you drink a lot of water. And at some point you have to tell yourself, right, I'm going back now because you can't you can't just, you know, leave the whole concert. It was just the first piece we were playing. So I did. So for the last movement, actually, of that clarinet concerto, it was in slow movement. When the slow movement was finished, I just opened the door and I just went back inside and I thought, you know, this is my this is my. How do you say my yeah, this is my moment. I'm going to win this. And I did. And then the last moment came and the last one was very joyful and easy. And the guy next to me really smiled at me. And he gave me a really nice look. And it was actually completely gone. Because the thing is, when you've been down so deep and when you've been, then anything happens after that is just such a relief that you can finally. So then the tension is gone in a second, and then you just play because it can't be worse than it was anyway, because, you know, it's been so bad that anything after that is actually great.
Yannick Dondelinger: Anyone else? The worst. One moment.
Justin Caulley: Oh, I had to. I had a nice little moment a few years ago, uh, when I, I really needed to kind of jump into a, a colleague of mine in Hamburg, uh, just had a shoulder problem, and he was going to play this duo from Sofia Gubaidulina, which was just long notes and, um, and like, as slow as possible. Uh, and I think it was, it was a duo with, uh, with a young, um, saxophone soloist. Actually, it was supposed to be easy. It wasn't really that hard. And we rehearsed it and I thought, yeah, it's okay, but I could feel that, I could feel that voice in the back of my head being like, oh, dude, you know it's gonna happen. And so and basically, like, we rehearsed fine. It wasn't a complicated piece. It was literally only only held notes. And then, you know, we walked out there and, um, I could feel my heart rate rising and sort of the blood pressure and feel it in my neck. And then just to start out, I just couldn't get the bow on the string, and it was just like, whoa, whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. And I had real shakes. And, um, at that point, because of the way that hall is, and we were just standing on the edge of the stage, and the audience is so close to you there. I really heard people talking about me. No joke. No joke. I heard, it was so soft.
Justin Caulley: And I heard these comments coming from the audience. And at some point, it was just. I just felt such an overwhelming shame. But the strange part was, as soon as it was clear that some people were talking loudly, real loudly about me and I could hear it, boom, it went away. It was just like, wow. It was just gone. And then. But but what happened then was the shame feeling. And so then it was just, I had this, I just played the whole thing. No problem. But just with this overwhelming sense of shame. And it was because I could tell people had heard, people had witnessed, you know what I was going through? So in a sense, it was a really an interesting thing to go back and analyze because it was like, if if I had had these symptoms but had been able to bury them, then they probably would have just kept going on. But then like because I heard because there was loud talking and loud comments. Wow. It really snapped out of it. So that was also I just wanted to throw that out there because that was like, there's, there's I've also, uh, had a theory that sometimes we all have a wish to be seen, even though in these moments we don't want to be seen. There's also maybe this, this like inner inner wish to like, have have other people really see us and witness what we're going through.
Yannick Dondelinger: Is it maybe am I going to get on to this in in the next question of dealing with it? But is it maybe also for me in those situations once, once it's happened, once you've realized you've made that idiot of yourself, then you get this relief, this tension, this release, and then you can just go on and do the thing, even if you're still in the same situation. It's like, okay, I messed up. Everyone knows about it now. Let's just get on and do the job kind of thing.
Johannes Lörstad: I remember once when I had this stress of performing, I was thinking, oh, I can't play and everything. Then I realised, listen, okay, I want to do this the rest of my life. I can't go on stage, do my job and just feel scared or frightened every time. That's not going to be a nice life. So I made a mental decision that I have to enjoy this. I have to enjoy the music. I have to go for music and not be scared of of messing up. And that was the real break point for me, actually, when I made that decision, because I really made a clear decision myself. Do I want to do life? I have to, then I have to enjoy it.
Yannick Dondelinger: What was happening at that moment? What made you have to?
Johannes Lörstad: Well, because I had, that was during the time when we often played with Abbado and having the position I had, leader of second violins playing with Abbado. If you made anything that made you play tiny bit earlier than the concertmaster, you got the eyes, you know, and he just looked at you like, what the idiot, what are you doing like this? And it made me really freaked out. I made it, really. I got really are like this. And then. And then at the same time, I had these problems with the triplets I was speaking about before. Every time we had some difficult triplets, I thought, okay, I can't do this. I'm not capable of playing triplets. But then I thought, why should a person like that decide my life? I mean, he's great. He's an amazing conductor. But why should he decide if I should be really scared of playing as. I mean, he didn't do that on purpose, but that's the way I felt. So I then made a mental decision. I'm just going to enjoy playing with him. I'm just going to enjoy playing music and it worked so well. Since then, I think I became a better player because I decided just to enjoy the music, focus on the music, leave the technical details because that's what you work on at home. But when you perform, it's music only and it normally works now.
[Music excerpt: Widmann – Choral Quartet]
Yannick Dondelinger: How have you all dealt with your own journeys with stage fright? I know for some people it's about building routines, for others. For others, it's therapy. For others, it's maybe building on knowledge of their instrument and how to feel comfortable with it. That was that was my case. Some people just need a banana and a quiet room before a concert to feel centered. Some people need to see what they do as not so important in the context of life. You mentioned that to me, Johannes. I'm sure you all have your own systems. Um, who wants to talk about their system or their journey or how they develop their system or.
Johannes Lörstad: I had a system how to deal with before, but for me, it works better not to have a system, because if I have a system, I get locked up into that I have to do this and this otherwise will not work will be complete OCD thing. So for me, it's much better not to have a system and take every day as it comes, as long as of course you should feel well, but not to go into routine of having to do that and that and that otherwise would not work. I had that when I was younger, but I do everything I can now not to have that because I felt that was negative for me.
Yannick Dondelinger: Um, I want to ask Joel. I want to ask you about this because it seems like in this conversation also, sometimes in conversations we've had previously, even though I see you as an extremely centered and calm player that you say you haven't dealt with your demons or your stage fright yet, and you strike me as a person who has absolutely dealt with it. Where are you at on it?
Joel Hunter: In some ways, I think I have dealt with it because I think, um, you know, it's it's it's not a one way street. You know, it's it's a, it's an up and down, you know, type roller coaster thing throughout your career. I think, you know, you have good times and bad times and I've had, you know, both, but what is it? I think, um, I think I've realized that I need to prepare well, and that preparing well gives me confidence. And what I need is confidence. I just need to be really confident when I sit in a rehearsal or a concert that I can do it, you know? And I just try and do that now by just being prepared and doing the work. You know, that's helped me a lot. Um, and I think I do try and I think there's a part of me that I sort of play the role of someone who's confident, you know, I sort of that's part of my process, I guess. Sort of not not showing my fear. Not showing the fear. You know, I hide the fear. So. So that's part of dealing with it in a way. I just don't want to be thought of as a kind of fragile or weak. So I, I sort of, you know, try and come across as someone who's confident and actually, that helps me weirdly.
Michiel Commandeur: I totally agree with Joel that a good preparation for the concert and feeling in control over the music you have to play because you practice it well and you rehearse it well with each other, that's already most of the work. But what also helps, I must say that especially in your childhood, which I missed a little bit, is um, and also later in orchestras is compliments from people. So like a positive approach. And there have been some people in my life who have added to my stage fright, to be honest, it's not only for me from my own body, it's not coming out only, but it's also came to me. So like for example, my my first violin teacher, she was very, very strict because her son was the best player and he always on the on the music evening's performances. He always played last, but I was second last because I was also good. And then now and then she would say in the break to all the audience, he would say, and now we get the really good players. And then I was like ten years old, you know, and I was many times crying at home before I had to go there and play. But I must admit that Claudio Abbado also added a lot to people's stagefright. Not. Not especially my own. Every time you did anything wrong, you were either out of Yorkshire or you were placed in the back or he was. He was very strict on that. And that doesn't add to your comfort. It doesn't add to your control. So even when you can play the music, you can just get nervous because somebody else is expecting something you don't you can't really grasp. You know, you're just not in this world. So that makes you really uncomfortable and insecure. And that adds for me a lot to stagefright as well.
Yannick Dondelinger: Classical music industry and also the classical music education is traditional. It's it's very traditionally very conservative. Do you think our institutions, our education institutions, our orchestras, our conductors. Do they breed fear? Do they breed? Do they breed musicians who are trained and grew up with fear? My experiences of places like Guildhall. A lot of my experiences were that fear was being bred into me.
Johannes Lörstad: I think it gets better and better though. I think it's way worse before. I think this old fashioned way of conducting, for example, was very much a dictatorship almost. They could decide everything and they they could create fear. You had to perform if you didn't manage, you were bad. I think young conductors generally, and teachers are more positively embracing your qualities and trying to promote you by being positive. Still, by understanding that you have to play your best. You can't just fake it. You have to be prepared and do your best. But when it's a concert, I think it doesn't really help to be negative. And I do think that young conductors nowadays are more much better in that way to normally do we do it together. And I also think orchestras are better on that nowadays. I think colleagues often want to help each other instead of just checking, oh, can you do you manage this? They actually are supportive to each other I think. I feel I am trying to be that. And I think most people are are that. I feel that.
Yannick Dondelinger: At this point in our lives, even if we still have stage fright, we must have dealt with it. We must be successful because we play on the biggest classical stages in the world. So does anyone have any insights into what what worked for them?
Ben Newton: The main thing I would say is that there is a basic level that I know I can perform to, and the basic level I know I can perform to is probably to an audience. You know, they probably think that's great, but to me, I think, wow, you know, it's really frustrating because at the at my very worst, I feel like I can't really do what I want to do. I don't have the freedom to do what I want to do. I might have the technique or I might have the ideas, but I don't have the actual physical freedom. You know, in that moment to do them. Michiel talked about his story about actually running off stage. I mean, I've had that feeling like I wanted to run off stage so many times. The thought never just occurred to me that I actually could. And I mean, that's amazing. And I have so much sympathy with that feeling that it's I've been there so many times. I've just been thinking they're like, why on earth am I sat here feeling like this? I could just leave and just, just leave and.
Yannick Dondelinger: No one will die.
Ben Newton: No one will die. And interesting, you'll say no one will die because I. This is just. This might be a tangent. Well, I, uh, got my private pilot's license when I came, and it was during the pandemic, so, you know, I wasn't really playing much at the time when I came back to performing full time. There was a slight change in my, uh, let's just say mindset, because for the previous six months to a year, all I'd been really been doing was, you know, flying and learning to fly and, you know, the very early stage, learning not to die because, you know, you're in a little aeroplane up in the sky on your own, which is, you know, scary. Well, yeah. Well, I mean, I don't find it scary, but I think I appreciate a lot of people find it scary. And, you know, there is a certain danger factor that when you get back on stage and you play, there is a certain freedom I find now in going well, at the very worst, I'm not going to kill anyone.
Yannick Dondelinger: And so to the final topic in our stage fright chat, it's the giant elephant in the room. The thing. Musicians, performers, conductors and soloists never, ever open up about. At least not that I'm aware of. Beta blockers. Beta blockers are a drug prescribed by doctors, more usually to people who have high blood pressure. And a quick Google definition describes the drug as a medicine that by blocking the hormone epinephrine, also known as adrenaline, causes the heart to beat slower and with less force, consequently lowering blood pressure. Now, in the world of performing arts, for purposes of giving press conferences, academic speeches, and in fact, any work that includes regularly presenting to large groups of people, beta blockers are used by some to handle the stress of the situation, and if you troll through the internet, you will find plenty of robust chat and discussion about the validity and, ironically, anxiety around the use of beta blockers also in other high stress jobs, from pilots to surgeons to teachers to train drivers, which means these drugs must somehow be in circulation in high pressure vocations and careers. To help open the conversation on what I predicted would be a controversial topic. I played what I thought was a rather witty and positive video clip from a chat show where the celebrated actor Robert Downey Jr opens up about his use of beta blockers for anxiety. Here's a clip from the interview, followed by our conversation.
TV Interviewer: Congratulations, by the way, on the Golden Globe on Sunday night. You mentioned in your speech, as soon as I heard it, I wanted to ask you about it because you said I took a beta blocker before I came up here.
Robert Downey Jr.: Yes. Direct quote was I just dropped a beta blocker, so this will be a breeze. They're fun. They're good. Once in a while. You can't. You can't depend on them. Is that true?
TV Interviewer: Tell me about them. Because I took one one time and I didn't feel like it did anything right.
Robert Downey Jr.: Well, that's that's why it's actually okay to take.
TV Interviewer: It, I see. Okay.
Robert Downey Jr.: Yeah, it does something, but you don't go like, oh my God, I'd like to take 300 of those.
TV Interviewer: Um hum.
Robert Downey Jr.: Um, it just kind of takes the edge off and and it worked a treat.
TV Interviewer: Is it good to take the edge off?
Robert Downey Jr.: Uh, I think when you if you feel like you might panic if your name gets called, do you know what it's like when you're nominated for a Golden Globe? And you guys can relate to this, right?
Michiel Commandeur: I find it so weird. Who cares if he takes a bit? Why is it even in the news?
Yannick Dondelinger: Yeah, but actually that's a very interesting point you bring up, because I think that brings up the whole issue that obviously a lot of people, whether it's public speaking or performing, they take beta blockers in secret. Doctors know that they take them because you have to have a doctor to prescribe a beta blocker. And doctors keep statistics so doctors know how many people are taking better blockers for whatever. For what? The reason. For what reason? So they know how many people are taking it for performing. When I, when I get betablockers from my doctor, prescribed it, says on the side of the packet to be taken one hour before performance. So it's very specifically for me. So I find it very interesting that of course, and this is the interesting part of this conversation, nobody openly talks about it, but many, many people obviously take it, which is why I found it interesting, particularly that of course, a well-known person like Robert Downey Jr comes out and says it, okay, let's open the conversation.
Joel Hunter: Yeah, I find it incredibly interesting why it's such a taboo subject. Like as as we just heard, um, you know, being able to play an instrument of any kind, there's no way that you can improve your performance on that instrument by taking some kind of drug. So it's never going to enhance your performance, like in sport. Uh, there are drugs that obviously. Do you know you a cyclist or someone that needs to boost their strength or their oxygen intake or whatever it might be to increase speed, power. You know, that's a whole different story. You know, but playing an instrument, we've all practiced hours and hours and hours to get to the level we're at. There's there's no drug in the world that you can take which will make you play better. So it's not a kind of performance enhancing thing. It's just a it's a way of being able to play. You know, for me, taking a beta blocker is just a way of being able to, uh, play the way you want to play. I mean, I've taken them on and off through my career. Um, you know, when I was younger, more. And, uh, there are side effects. You know, it does make you a bit sluggish and it does kind of there are sort of negative, uh, so, you know, it's not, um, I just, I just find it really interesting why it's such a taboo subject and why people don't want to talk about it and why people, uh, hide it, you know? I mean, why not just. It's like a paracetamol for pain relief or, you know, why not just, you know, just take the goddamn thing if if it's going to keep you calm and be able to do your job, what's the problem? Really? What's the problem? You know.
Johannes Lörstad: Uh, no. For me, um, uh, being a diabetic, type one, um, I never want to take a beta blocker because I'm not sure how I would react and just. Yeah, just to because I never took one. And I think any any drug that I don't know how I react to, I will never take. I decided never to even try them, because if I would take a beta blocker and I would find it great for me, I would. I don't know when I wouldn't take it anymore. Maybe I would in the end take it for every rehearsal because. So I never want to start. So that's. Well, yeah. I don't want it to feel that it makes me better. I heard often, often the side effects of beta blockers can make you actually also musically not as on the top as if you are. If you're normal nervous because you kill your emotions a bit. What I've heard I don't know if it's true, but I heard that you maybe are not as aware also musically, because everything is a bit. So that's another reason why I personally I, I don't like them, even though I understand many people take them. I, I believe it's better to find other ways. Many people also drink alcohol before concerts and stuff to calm you down. I think it's better to try to work on yourself mentally to, well, try. Anyway, that's my my my my idea. Because I do believe that if you start taking a drug that you become dependent on it and you feel you have to take it every time, and then the day you don't have it, you might completely freak out. Mm. Yeah. That's my belief.
Ben Newton: I think that for some people they really work. And I think they have whether it's, uh, the physical effects of the drug or it's the even the placebo effect, it has an effect. For me, I found that I, I didn't start taking them until I was probably, uh, 2 or 3 years out of college, and I was really freelancing and working all the time, and I was starting to struggle with various bits. I was starting to get really, really shaky. And, you know, sometimes comes around playing solos or things like that. So I someone suggested, hey, you know what? Why don't you just try one rehearsal to see what you think? And it worked. And I felt fine. I felt really normal. I could do it. I could play this solo. It was no problem. So then occasionally I would take one. But then it got to the stage where it started to be a bit of a reliance thing. I would sit at the back of a section for, you know, and just play, you know, normal concert, and that I couldn't get through the concert if I hadn't had one. And what I tended to find was that actually it wasn't taking anything off. I still was physically tight. I was still having the feelings of like, actually feeling really uncomfortable. I might very well have had a lower heart rate, but it didn't really have really the greatest effect.
Yannick Dondelinger: It doesn't have a mental effect, it just has a physical effect. Yeah, it won't take away your anxiety.
Ben Newton: No. So. So really? So I stopped and I also I mean, I sort of I, you know, the doctor suggested maybe it wasn't the best, best idea and actually I have not I've not taken them for years. And I mean, Johannes just mentioned about the numbing the, uh, the, you know, the well, I mean, not what was it you said? Yeah. Emotional. Emotional side. I mean, I always find this this phrase. Oh, you get nervous because you care. I find that so irritating when people say that because, I mean, of course, it's really well meant and it's, you know. Yeah, it's true, but I think you get nervous way more. I think it's a lot more complicated than that. I think just saying you get nervous or you just care so much because it's great to care. And I was like, yeah, it's great to care. But, you know, perhaps I care too much that, you know, and it's getting in the way. I would never judge anyone for taking beta blockers. I mean, I've taken some myself, but this remains a massive taboo about it. It's almost an unspoken thing, and I think there's a history of hiding things, of brushing things under the carpet.
Ben Newton: And, you know, you can just get out there and do that. And, and, you know, maybe that's a in different countries, maybe there's a different tradition. Personally, I think in the UK there's quite a big tradition of it being quite taboo. It's just something you don't really talk about. It's something you deal with yourself. I think it's great that we sit here and talk about it because, you know that I think that's quite rare. Mhm. Whether you take one or not, I think you have to be able to stand there or sit there on stage and physically do the stuff that you need to do. You know, you have a technique, you have an understanding, you have a craft. I think this idea of taking a beta blocker is. I think it's personal. And I think whatever stage of, uh, you know, I mean, fine, okay. If it's heart rate, something like that, fine. But really, I don't think that for me it made a big difference.
Joel Hunter: So I just I just wanted to, to, to say, do you think it's a sort of macho thing? Is it, is it a kind of is the reason it's taboo? Is it considered like a weakness or is it some kind of, um, you know, you should be able to. It's like a sort of strength, um, you know, you're considered weak or fragile or vulnerable, and that's not, you know, being being a performer. You know, one should one should be able to deal with these things. I don't know, I'm just because it is interesting. Why is it why is it taboo? Why do people hide it? Why do people not talk about it? You know. I've taken them. You've taken them. You've taken them. We're happy to talk about it. Why? Why is it such a kind of strangely secret world out there? You know.
Yannick Dondelinger: Some spontaneous thoughts about that, that the whole classical music and the history of being a musician. It's a traditionally it's a very mystical profession. It's a very nebulous profession, being either a soloist or a conductor. And the audience shouldn't come close to in your almost like, like a magician. And your craft shouldn't be so scientifically, you know, planned out. I mean, that's changing now. The whole profession is changing, and maybe taking a beta blocker is something way too concrete and ordinary. How dare you be human and weak and need this? You're supposed to be a magician. I don't have that talent. You have that talent. You produce on the on the stage, something I can't. I don't want to know that you have a weakness. I don't know if that's a connection.
Michiel Commandeur: You're afraid maybe also to be rejected. Can I add something to the subject of taking beta blockers? Because we were talking about stage fright in the beginning. And for me, they are. They go together, but not completely because I can be. Um, for example, I could take a beta blocker when I'm really nervous for a concert beforehand. So I think it's going to be really exciting and I'm nervous. But actually, actually, the real stage fright has to do with a fixation for me, a fixation on certain parts in your score where you are afraid that you might lose control of your bow. That's generally my my feeling, and I must admit that a beta blocker doesn't change that. You know, the thing is, the beta blocker makes you generally maybe more relaxed and everything. You go on stage and it's all fine. But still, I could have, even with a beta blocker, I could have a shaking bow arm and a bouncing bow because my doctor once told me, Michiel, I can give you some beta blockers, but there are only ten milligrams and I give them to heart patients and they are 80 or 90 or 100mg, so don't think you will feel anything. But if you want to take this, you know how to call it the kind of fake medicine placebo. Then please help yourself. Because if it's if it's just for your head, you know, please do it because it's harmless. But for me, it doesn't solve the problem of serious stage fright. I mean, like, like freaking out on stage that you can only solve in your head, I think.
Yannick Dondelinger: Yeah, yeah.
Johannes Lörstad: Just to clarify a bit, maybe, Ben, if you misunderstood me when I meant when you get nervous. I never meant to say that you get nervous because you care. I think you get nervous. Whatever. But I think when you are a bit nervous, I do believe that you are more receptive for colors and music, and I think, that I strongly believe. But I don't think you become nervous because you care.
Yannick Dondelinger: Well, certainly on the basic on a medical level, you're right that the whole fight or flight system in your, in your body is designed to make you more, more receptive and aware. I mean, I feel myself often as an, as an interesting experiment because I think I've been taking beta blockers. I don't know, 15 years or something. And I got to the stage where I would take them very regularly, so regularly that on no more than one or a number of occasions, I would actually forget to take them. You know, we all forget routines occasionally, whether it's brushing your teeth or whatever it is. And I would forget to take them. And then sometimes I would realize in the middle of the concert, sometimes I would realize afterwards. And it's interesting to analyze that after the concert, I would realize, oh, I didn't take one. And then my next thought would be, what was different, and actually nothing was different. Which brings us to the subject of it being a placebo, and I strongly believe in my case anyway. I think it's also right to say it's different for different people. I take a ten milligram dose, which is a very small dose, and I think in effect, my beta blocker is a placebo. I don't actually think it's doing anything. I think it's like somebody takes a banana. Someone has to have a sandwich. Someone has to do something, a routine before. And this has become, for whatever reason, a routine that I do when it's not there and I don't know, it's not there. It actually doesn't make any difference. So in that respect, it's purely in my mind, which is very interesting. Can I ask.
Michiel Commandeur: One question to that? But you say sometimes I forgot and then I read. But if you, if you would realize five minutes before you would go on stage.
Yannick Dondelinger: Well, that's also interesting because in the beginning, when I would in the early years, I would occasionally forget. And then I would realize and that scenario five minutes before then I would be. My God, I have to go and find one. Or halfway or halfway through the concert. My first thing would be just like you. When is the next very quiet long note coming along? I mean, it's insane. It's ridiculous. But then as the years go on and obviously you play, you realize, or you're able to play in the way, as you said, Joel, the the way that you want to play it, sort of you've retrained yourself that I can just play exactly the way I play in the practice room. I don't I don't have any extraneous thing in my mind holding me back. Um, then when you forget to take a beta blocker, you you realize you do realize it's just a everything is a mental condition. It's all a question of in the mind. And of course, as as this this short clip we saw on the video, the doctor there says it's always better if you don't have to take a drug. That's very true. Um, But it's also interesting if it's a placebo, which implies that eventually you might not need it. You can eventually do away with it because it is in the mind.
Joel Hunter: So up to now, this podcast has been very, uh, you know, amenable. And we've all been, like, agreeing with each other and nodding our heads and oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But actually, I'm about to strongly disagree with what Johannes said a minute ago, which is, uh, you know, that you think being nervous is essential is an essential part of being a musician and that, you know, like when you're performing and playing, um, uh, in a, in a kind of natural nervous state that you somehow you're more emotionally connected to the music and that you can find colors and that you can kind of do things that you wouldn't be able to do after taking a beta blocker, for example. But, um, when I have taken them in the past, I found, you know, the reason I took them in the first place was because I was doing concerts or auditions or performances where I literally couldn't do those things because I was blocked by this physical thing that happened, which meant that I couldn't do all those things, those musical aware being emotionally connected, you know, I was I was just kind of gripped by this fear and this kind of horrible feeling, which meant I became this sterile, you know, trying to survive person playing this instrument, trying not to sound horrible, but not not thinking at all about in any music sense. So actually, I found that when I took them, I didn't have to worry about that anymore, that I suddenly could do all those things, like those musical things and those. Having that great feeling of enjoyment and sharing and connecting and feeling. And so it kind of, in a way did the opposite of what you were saying. For me, you know, um.
Yannick Dondelinger: Do you think there's a difference between nervous excitement and pure nerves? For me personally, I just find it very interesting that that I sometimes forget to take it. And afterwards I think, wow, I didn't even notice that. For me, that's ironically, that's a very positive thing. And it also means that the drug I am taking is not taking away from my pleasure of of my performance.
Justin Caulley: It's more. But don't you think it's more of like a, uh, it gets right down to like the, the the roots of the human psyche. I mean, I, I read a very long article in the New York Times a few years ago about Russian pianist Sviatoslav Richter. Yeah, right. So, um, I didn't know this until. And and, you know, until I read that article. Um, maybe you guys know this, but, um, I had grown up listening to CDs of this guy just because my dad, like, had all his CDs. And I remember being at music camp when he died, and I was like, oh, he died, you know, but but, you know, obviously, obviously, like, just a legendary, legendary musician. Um, and had this I think it was a lobster, like a toy lobster. Have you guys heard this story? No. Oh, yeah. Great. Um, so if I'm, if I'm not mistaken, the article was like detailing his obsession. Real obsession With, um, having this sort of lucky toy lobster in a box with him, as far as I understand, even on stage when he played and and he would he it wasn't like something he would show. It was in a box. He couldn't see it, but he'd have it, like under his arm or something. And people would assume it's like, I don't know, part of the stuff he needs to play or whatever.
Justin Caulley: And then he would put it down and play. Um, well, this is this is how I understood it. Who knows? It might have been like backstage. So don't quote me on all the details, but I know there was an OCD, a real obsession there like that. Then, you know, well, after his death was like documented in this famous newspaper. It was a fascinating article Because at some point then he also, like Johannes mentioned, he also wanted to be free. That was his ritual. He needed it. He wanted to be free. And I'm a guy who really needs my rituals to like. And I also second. Second, the thought of like, maybe becoming free from some of these rituals because I have stuff I have to do before the concert, you know, and I have weird, weird stuff I do like, because I do like, learned. I mean, yeah, I always, I always go to the bathroom and do my tapping routine. There's like a self-talk. Yeah. You guys have never noticed me doing this. Yeah. It's so weird. Yeah, but I hide it. Of course. Well, you know, because like. But, um, it's it's it's it's psychological, uh, self-talk with acupressure that a that a doctor in Germany. Um.
Yannick Dondelinger: Acupressure.
Justin Caulley: Yeah. It's like tapping slowly on these nerve endings. They're all over.
Michiel Commandeur: Like before. Every concert.
Justin Caulley: Before every concert.
Yannick Dondelinger: You give a quick just a quick demonstration.
Justin Caulley: Yeah, but I mean, like, German students would know this, but. So, I mean, there's. So you have to like, so also slightly embarrassing. No, no. But so there's sentences that this doctor, uh, also like developed doctor Klinghardt. I think he's from Stuttgart. And then it was like, uh, even though I'm nervous about my bow shaking, I love and accept myself the way I am right now. But you have to go in a slow three and and it's actually good if you look in the mirror. But I'll like. But you have to like. So the the nerves. It's Chinese based on Chinese medicine. The nerve endings are just right in the middle of the skull. So you've got to, like you put your hands, like, in a row, And then you, you you tap right in the middle of the skull. You can feel where the nerve endings and you tap a slow three rhythm. But, I mean, I do have to admit that I, that I feel like it's maybe just my thing that I should just like, it's my thing I need to do. I should just do it like, in my corner. You know, I've gotten a little bit more open about it recently. In recent years, I was very secretive about it. Like, you know, probably 5 or 6 years ago, um, I've gotten a little bit more, more relaxed about it, but, uh, definitely, it's just part of my ritual, you know? But I bring up the Sviatoslav Richter story because then he wanted to free himself from from his obsessive toy lobster thing and then actually had an assistant, according to the story, this is how I understood it.
Justin Caulley: He had an assistant who would then without his knowing, and he told his assistant, please take the box with the lobster. Go to my dressing room. I'm going to stand here in the hallway. You either take the lobster out or don't, and I don't know it. And you give me the box and I go out. And that was his way of trying to free himself from this absolute obsession. And it's so interesting, that story. And I think about that a lot because the like you said, the placebo effect is so real. And and he was obviously like a dude who was falling into this trap of, of obsessive, slightly obsessive compulsive disorder. And, and I can I can feel it, you know, like like I would not want to go out without having done my little weirdo ritual. You know, if I had to. Okay, I would somehow live through it. But I'm sure every little thing that would happen. I would be like, oh, you know, that's it. You know, like, world's ending. Like, this is. This is why it's bad concert. You know, it was like, I know I'm going to shake this. This is it. You know, and maybe that would also be a good feeling to just be like. Oh, well, I mean, how can this be good? Like, I didn't do my thing, you know? But yeah. So yeah, that's just my two cents on it.
[Music excerpt: Widmann – Choral Quartet]
Yannick Dondelinger: It's famously said to take a minimum of 10,000 Thousand hours to master an instrument. And if you're talking about the performers who I've been speaking to in this episode, by this stage in their careers, they've perfected their craft over a lot longer than 10,000 hours. Is it possible to imagine how much repetition, correction, repetition, adjustment, repetition, evaluation, repetition, repetition, repetition has gone into learning how to produce on demand music from the mind, through the body, and then the instrument finally out into the concert hall and by the way, effortlessly, seemingly spontaneously. Oh, and without breaking the audience's suspension of reality. Think about this. What if that little voice of doubt starts creeping into your consciousness just as you're about to perform? I'm not trying to dramatize the point. This is often how the story goes for even the most seasoned of performers, We just don't talk about it. For me, stage fright is proof of both how powerful and fragile the mind is able to reproduce intricacies that are fantastic, only to sabotage them with a moment's doubt. And if it's true that a lot of doubts and fear are bred from childhood, then can you imagine how many hours these negative behavioural patterns have had to breed and fester and develop in the mind? Thousands, as many as it takes to learn to play the instrument? It's this irony, the years I wasted in private, worrying about stage fright, when I should have been exploring and developing my musical personality on stage.
Yannick Dondelinger: That convinces me whichever routine will allow you to stay clear headed and as in control of your actions on stage as when you're practicing. Whether it's eating a banana, doing a head tapping routine, taking a toy lobster on stage, embracing your fear and putting the enjoyment first, or arranging with your doctor to take a tablet. Then. Then you'll be able to start practicing how to perform while you're performing. And instead of being in fight or flight mode, you will be in exploration mode. And that has to be a more fun and nourishing way to perform over your whole career. Personally, I'm not sure much good ever happens when humans are in a state of fright. Here are some closing thoughts and reflections from my friends. I hope they're useful.
[Music excerpt: Debussy - L’après-midi d’un faune]
Ben Newton: Try and find a way physically, whether that be posture or, you know, just, you know, keeping yourself in shape. Um, find a way just to set yourself up as best as you can, that you don't need to rely on anything else to get through it. You are going to feel uncomfortable at times. It is not a normal activity to walk out on stage and play to thousands of people. You know, if that was a normal activity, then you know well, well, it's just not a normal activity. So I think just accept it's not a normal activity and really just embrace it.
Joel Hunter: I actually think young people are lucky these days. Um, because it's we're living in a different world now where mental health is right on the forefront of everyone's minds. And it's being talked about a lot. And people are always being encouraged to talk, talk freely about it. And I think there's a lot more help out there, a lot more support. A lot more awareness. And, you know, support that they that they need that maybe we didn't actually, you know, because it has been a sort of taboo subject for so many years. And now it's not.
Michiel Commandeur: What we talked about before is the kind of conservative kind of negative style education or very strict or how do you say, compared to a very positive approach from teachers, although still very structured and very good level, of course, but but in a much more personal way and a much more careful way, I guess.
Johannes Lörstad: Be strict with yourself when you practice, that's necessary. You have to be strict. When you practice, you want to nail every note. You want to practice all the difficult passages, but then when you perform, you have to let it go. Then it's only music that counts.
Justin Caulley: As I've gotten older the one thing I regret from my education was that I wasn't gracious with myself, and that I also didn't use the chance to experiment. But I mean, it's so much more fun if if you can learn to forgive yourself and just kind of treat it like a big, fun experiment. When you go out there and dare to kind of make a gesture and open yourself up can be really fun, actually. You know, it's scary, but it's also really fun. That's what I think. That's why we keep doing it. And so then there's this aspect of like, well, you know, if if you don't really if you're on a roller coaster and you don't know what's coming, you can you can embrace it or not, but you're probably going to going to be taken to the end anyway, and you're going to yell your head off and it's going to be crazy and fun and hopefully you won't puke. But. But even if you do, that was great. You know, like and so there's, there's this mentality like you know of like oh you know, well if you can't really do it, you shouldn't go out there. Yeah. I mean but yeah, take a risk and maybe we should all maybe I should also remember that more to like take a risk. Forgive yourself when it doesn't go. Go well and just experiment and treat it like a big fun, fun experiment because that's what it is, you know?
Yannick Dondelinger: I think it's very important to make clear to everyone listening that the opinions you've heard in this episode concerning the use of beta blockers are not that of the Mahler Chamber Orchestra organization. They are opinions of only myself and those I interviewed for this episode. We are primarily musicians and have no formal medical training, which means if you are considering using beta blockers, you should first consult the website of your national medical authority and make an appointment with your doctor to get a proper medical consultation. Between the bars would like to say a huge thank you to Joel Hunter, Michiel Commandeur, Ben Newton, Justin Caulley and Johannes Lörstad for talking about their stage fright. All Music you heard was performed by the Mahler Chamber Orchestra at the 2024 Ojai Music Festival, California, and we are so grateful to the festival for allowing the use of these TV broadcasts, which are still on the Ojai Music Festival website. So click on it and you can watch us all in concert. The Between Bars team is Benita Schauer, Matthias Mayer and me, Yannick Dondelinger and is a production of the Mahler Chamber Orchestra. Till next time, don't forget. Keep listening.
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